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Post Info TOPIC: What do vegans think about abortion?


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Hey dear Veggies,

I hope I didn't ask something wrong, I don't mean to harm anybody with this question of mine. I was just asked by one of my acquaintance, what vegans were thinking about abortion? He asked this, because he knew, that we were against cruelty of animals and against killing innocent creatures...So I thougt I just ask you. What do you think?

 

Thank you for all the answers:)



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I am pro-life.



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I believe in a women's right to choose.   That said, I think it sucks big time when someone feels they have to choose an abortion.   No judgement on that.  Just having converted to a plant-based lifestyle, I am re-considering my positions about many things.  But I think we all have the right to determine if we are want to bring a life into the world.



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Thank you for your answers. I appreciate the life of every creature, so I think, abortion is sad, but I also agree with you Evolving, that I don't want to judge anyone.

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That is really an interesting question. As of this minute I believe in a womens right to choose what she does or doesn't allow to grow in her body. I would agree that abortion is sad but I also think it's sometimes necessary. And I don't think I have the right to say when it is or isn't necessary for someone else.

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Just like the choice to consume dairy and eggs for a vegetarian, I feel that abortion is a choice individuals make.

I personally don't agree with abortion at all, unless it's a particular circumstance, such as rape or will seriously endanger the mother.

But I don't think that's anything to do with being vegan, I just don't think anything innocent should be killed, if the person didn't want to get pregnant - don't have sex/ use contraception! :D

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It is so sad to hear of all the child abuse, child neglect, and horrible stories about bad parents to their children. (unwanted) so in my opinion, I would think it is much better to have an abortion than to have an unwanted child. I am a survivor of child neglect, and abuse. and it is not fun. it is a miserable existence.. I often wished my mother had just adopted me away, or aborted me.. because of all the horror I had to endure. *****I for the record would never consider an abortion- but then again I planned my children, and loved them and raised them with much love happiness and love*****

I hope that my answer does not offend anyone here.. just giving my thoughts on the subject.

I hate any and all abuse and neglect to anyone, or any animal. and I respect all living, breathing beings.

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I am divided on the subject.

I believe that anyone who calls themselves a vegan should be showing compassion towards all life in all forms. However, I do not believe it is right to force someone to be a vegan but rather educate them and let them make an ethical decision.

I would then apply this stance to abortion.

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I have a hard time with this too. I've always been pro-choice, because I don't feel right in forcing a woman to bear a child. I personally wouldn't have one, because I don't know if a fetus has a soul yet...I'd hate to be wrong. I lean toward believing the soul enters later...but good luck in ever proving anything close to that right? LOL. If I approach it like a vegan, and use sentience or awareness as the criteria, I'm still not sure. When is a fetus aware? If it has a nervous system but hasn't developed the parts of the brain that make it aware of its environment, can it still suffer? Without those answers, I have to approach it more as a belief or philosophy than scientific proof....and therefore have to allow others the same freedom to define their own beliefs about all of that, which means I would have to let the woman chose according to her own conscience.


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In my opinion, we shouldn't destroy or cause pain towards any life outside of absolute necessity whatsoever. I believe in compassion towards a living things, no matter their "awareness". I don't believe in forcing the woman to make the choice to keep the child, but neither do I like the idea of the death of the fetus unless it is cause for physical harm (leading to death) of the carrier. In such a situation, I 100% believe the mother has the right to make the choice.

Yes, I eat plants and kill life in doing so. But I try my best. I do this out of necessity. If I don't eat, I die. So by being as practical and merciful as possible, I will eat only what my body needs and can actually use to survive. I will not kill a cow or fish out of self comfort.

Taking it to abortion, I believe the fetus, which will soon be aware, has the right to live. Ergo, I then think that only when the fetus will put the mother at harm (or even death), the mother should have the right to choose abortion.

I'm not sure which category I'd fit into then.

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Spaz wrote:

I have a hard time with this too. I've always been pro-choice, because I don't feel right in forcing a woman to bear a child. I personally wouldn't have one, because I don't know if a fetus has a soul yet...I'd hate to be wrong. I lean toward believing the soul enters later...but good luck in ever proving anything close to that right? LOL. If I approach it like a vegan, and use sentience or awareness as the criteria, I'm still not sure. When is a fetus aware? If it has a nervous system but hasn't developed the parts of the brain that make it aware of its environment, can it still suffer? Without those answers, I have to approach it more as a belief or philosophy than scientific proof....and therefore have to allow others the same freedom to define their own beliefs about all of that, which means I would have to let the woman chose according to her own conscience.


 Very well said. 



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I believe that a woman has the right to chose but I believe she should be responsible about her sexuality and try to avoid pregnancy if she isn't ready for it. I know too many young women that look at abortion as a form of birth control and that is what I believe is wrong.

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I don't agree on abortion.

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I am 100% pro-choice! The human population is out of control, and putting a terrible strain on the planet. Humans also have an extreme capacity for violence and cruelty. Keeping the human population down is the best thing we can do for the planet, the animals, and for humanity as a whole.

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In a perfect world, women would be taught to be responsible about their sexuality. They would have loving, responsible parents and role models and a society that teaches responsible behavior about sexuality and honoring one's body.  Sadly, kids are molested, parents are drug addicts and alcoholics, media presents sex as casual, and our educational system and religious institutions cannot come to agreement about what is responsible sexual behavior.  So unplanned pregnancies happen.  Aborting an embryo is sad, but bringing an unwanted baby into the world is worse in my humble opinion.



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As it relates to vegetarianism/veganism, I'm not sure that there is an automated answer for this one. Obviously, the pro choice and pro life movement have made good cases for support, creating evidence to prove both points.

Ultimately, it's a fact that the embryo is the DNA of a homo sapien. It's the potential for life, and at various points in the development of that embryo/fetus, the embryo/fetus can feel joy, pain, etc. Scientifically, the embryo, after implantation, has the potential to become a human life. The embryo/fetus can become a human- a human who can become the best vegan ever; a human who can lead the world and make it a better place; or a human born with Down's Syndrome- a child filled with unbridled love. For those reasons, I don't necessarily think it is just, or right, to participate in an abortion.

Working in social services, I don't believe abortions would decrease the rates of child abuse. We see the young moms, as young as 12, happy, elated they are pregnant. It's what you do; it's a cultural thing (and I don't mean race or ethnicity). You have babies; maybe multiple babies; by the time you are 20. You don't necessarily care for them. Being a mom, with multiple baby daddies- It's what you do- like how most of us graduate form high school, most of us get a job- that's the norm. This, is the norm, sometimes, for people living in impoverished sections of our nation. I have seen children born, traumatized in the worst way- to parents who were fully aware that the abortion option was out there.
Now as you're thinking I'm pro-life, I'll add this. HOWEVER, I understand why someone would have an abortion. I understand the fear that would run through someone's mind, when they find out they are pregnant when they do not want to be pregnant; when they are not in a position to give a child up for adoption. Maybe the person thinks, I"m already trying to do so much good for so many people in our world; being a parent, would have me just focus on that one child, rather than many. My mission, is to help countless children get a better life, and having a child, would greatly interupt that plan. And, I don't think that trying to help hundreds of kids through mission/philanthropic work, is selfish.

It's a misnomer it is the poor young people who have abortions; established married career women in their mid twenties through 40's are a rising group of individuals who have abortions.

Because of the emotional turmoil, and the near loss of mind that goes with this, I don't know that I can say, those who have abortions are always unjustice and merciless. If abortion can be justified for the life of the mother, than mental capacity, and the ability to remain mentally stable, would fall under this category. If the mother couldn't stay mentally stable- even though she is terminating the life of an unborn human being- then perhaps an abortion would be okay.

I used to think that abortion was so bad. That those who had them were selfish people. But had a change of heart. If only God can judge me now, what makes me think I could be in a position to judge? I understood another side of an issue. I understood, that this issue isn't just black and white, but filled with a ton of gray. And it's my job, to not be judgemental. And, realize I won't classify myself as either Pro Life or Pro Choice. Too much gray, to be a part of a category.



-- Edited by luvarescue on Sunday 24th of July 2011 10:07:21 PM



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Whilst I believe strongly in the right for women to have an abortion if it really is a matter of last resort, the notion of doing no harm means that I do not believe in abortion as a method of birth control. Furthermore, it is a lack of social supports and structures that lead many young women to have abortions, as well as a poor adoptions system in Australia. If these issues could be addressed proactively, then I see no reason why abortion could not be made a last resort only, through a requirement for medical or mental health grounds for ending life.

Every time this debate comes up, I am reminded of a number of close friends who were 'going to be abortions'. It is horrific to think that our society condones the thoughtless refusal of human life.

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Vegans are all individuals. I am pro-choice.

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I am definitely pro-choice. My choice to become a Vegan has not altered that. I do not see a correlation between the two.

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abortion is murder, plain and simple.no

i am a woman and the term, a woman's right to choose, makes me sick!

i can not judge anyone else... but putting  a nicer name on something, i.e. meat instead of flesh, factory farming instead of slaughter, abortion instead of murder, does not change what it really is.



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Very well put, luverascue. Makes me think. I agree that there is right and there is wrong and there is lots of gray.

I understand abortion in areas of self-defense (death, etc.) but that's how life works. Is it legel for you to kill someone because they have made you mentally unstable or because you just don't want them around? Should that person not exist? If you could no longer support your children or if they were verging on taking your insanity, can you kill them?

I guess what it comes down to is when "it" supposedly becomes "person".



-- Edited by Waltz on Monday 25th of July 2011 10:34:08 AM

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The only kind of 'abortion' I find myself able to accept, as everyone can make a mistake, is the morning after pill. That way you're never sure if you even were pregnant, and it is only a fertilised egg, no an already forming human. I guess that might be wrong, but if you knowingly kill a child to be, I think it's unforgivable.
If the baby is unwanted? There are millions of couples out there who are unable to have children of their own, deserving people without the means to produce children. I think it's incredibly sad that people would rather just have an abortion than give someone the greatest gift imaginable.
I don't think abortion is acceptable, even if the child is unwanted. I have been through the child abuse myself, both physically and mentally, but the gift of life is a precious one!
I guess there is no right or wrong answer for this, except to follow your own ethics! :)

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I would have to say that I am also pro-choice. It does seem like a contradiction to be vegan, eg for animal welfare and against cruelty and to also be pro-choice. However, my main reason for being pro-choice is that I believe abortion needs to have legal status so that it can be done in the best of clinical situations and not in some room in the back of a warehouse, with coat hangers or crude, non-sterile equipment. If it were illegal women who felt the need would still get abortions but they would likely suffer from some kind of worst-case scenario such as the one I have described. It happened all too often before.

That said, I would think that non-veg-heads would be able to relate to that sort of position and not be judgmental. Believe me, I have seen many, many pro-lifers who still find nothing wrong in running a good pidgeon shoot or hunting down game in fenced in preserves. So it goes both ways.



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Personally, as a birth mother, I am pro-life. I believe all life is sacred and every heartbeat is a gift from the Divine.
I knew, from the moment I even thought I was pregnant, that I was carrying someone else's child. That something that would be such a burden to me, would be a total blessing to someone else. That was 18 years ago, and I got to recently meet him, and you know what? I was right. He's grown up to be an amazing young man!
Because I chose to give a child up, I would never in a million years judge a woman that has decided otherwise. She made the best decision for her, at the time. Every woman has her own struggles to go through and her own crosses to bear. My personal beliefs shouldn't be a factor in such a life changing decisions.

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Thank you so much, for sharing your opinion! Evolving wrote 'Sadly, kids are molested, parents are drug addicts and alcoholics, media presents sex as casual, and our educational system and religious institutions cannot come to agreement about what is responsible sexual behavior.' I totally agree with this lines. A very big problem is - at least I think so- , that the media brings kind of a bad example by presenting sex as it hasn't had consequences, don't you think? So a 14 year old girl can easiley think, that nothing happens, if she sleeps with her boyfriend and unwanted pregnancy happens just that fast. And I don't think it's normal for a 14 year old to become pregnant.

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'I guess that might be wrong, but if you knowingly kill a child to be, I think it's unforgivable.
If the baby is unwanted? There are millions of couples out there who are unable to have children of their own, deserving people without the means to produce children. I think it's incredibly sad that people would rather just have an abortion than give someone the greatest gift imaginable.'

Annie, you're so right! There are lots of couples, who can't have a child and they'd be so thankful if someone gave them one. This way can be the best for everyone in that situation, without harming a single soul.



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so many well put opinions and answers, that makes me think...reading the lines of such incredible people around me, makes me so proud and happy, to be a vegan...thank you!

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I believe a woman has a right to her body and I use to be pro-choice. But now I'm 33 and have endometriosis (physically painful & causes infertility). I have had 3 miscarriages and I have no children. I am not able to have children. I ALWAYS wanted to be a mother. I go back and forth with how I feel about abortions. Someone had mentioned here that a fetus doesn't have a soul. I don't believe to be true at all. The ONLY time on an ultrasound I was able to see a heartbeat was at six weeks in gestation. I fell in love and one day later the "fetus" passed away. All my babys are my angels. IT IS THE HARDEST THING I AM GOING THROUGH EVER.

Because I would LOVE to be able to have a baby naturally to carry it. Feel it kick. Everything that I will never have and never know.

I am now looking to adopt. I have no other choice. Pro-choice,pro-abortion either way I don't really know. I am torn. I have deep rooted emotions on this subject. I wish women that are pregnant can see that this being can have a chance at life, rather it be adoption or not to end its life.

All for love,
Summer








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I don't think anyone is pro abortion. Abortion should be a last resort, when having a child or carrying a child is not feasible. I am not pro abortion, I am pro choice because I don't think anyone but the pregnant woman should get a say in what happens. Her body, her choice. If you look around you at other species, they exercise that choice. Birds choose to quit sitting on their eggs. Cats eat or kill their newborns. They know something about their circumstances that makes them instinctually behave this way.

Summer, I am so sorry for your loss. Truly.

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Oolong, it usually is the best! Especially if they go to a loving, caring family, which they usually do.

My uncle is actually adopted, and my grandparents told him when he was 18. He thought about finding his birth mother and father, but then decided against it as he saw my grandparents as his real parents... there was no need for him to find those who did not want him.

So even those who are like "No, I don't want some kid coming to find me in 20 years" can't really use that as an excuse to abort. And as KBrouse said, even if they do come to meet you, you get to know that you made the right decision, making a couple endlessly happy, and giving the child the gift of love and life.

Summer, I'm really sorry to hear that :(, my Nan had 9 miscarriages before she adopted (and then randomly had two children later on), but I know how hard it must be for you! I sense that any potential adoptee would be lucky to have you to save them and be their mother! :)

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I feel I need to clarify something, and I want you all to know, that by no means was I offended, so I hope I don't offend anyone else.
No time during my pregnancy with Aron, did I ever, ever, not want him. No birth mother, no matter what her age or circumstance, ever feel that they just don't want that child. If they weren't wanted, they would be aborted. A birth mother sees that fetus as an innocent human and knows that without her holding them back, he or she can do great things, and she loves them so much she would give them to someone else that can do better than her.
Being a mother is tough. Being a birth mother is heartbreaking.

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I do have a lot of respect for what you did, in many ways, I wish my parents had given me to my grandparents LONG before I was old enough to make that decision myself. It's truly courageous what you did, and it must ease a lot to know that he is happy and doing well and that all you went through was the right choice :)

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I am pro-life, I have never agreed with the idea of abortion. But of course everyone has their own choice. We can never judge who's right and who's wrong.

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Brouse,
I can't imagine being a birth mother. It takes my breathe away just to read what you wrote.
You changed my perception. Thank you. I needed that...you don't know how much I do,my world is upside down right today.

Annie,
It's been hard for people to tell me that there is a chance...by god or some divine grace. The odds are greatly stacked against me. Adoption is what I believe that I was ment to do. Thank you for those kind words I want nothing more than to be a mother!

Wren,
I ment to type in pro-life but I guess it turned out I didn't. It would be devastating to make abortion illegal. Women should have a choice it is their body. It was ****ed up when it was illegal and we should never go back there.

Abortion is a gray area with me. I can't say yes or no. I can't say what I would do in another woman's shoes.







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SummerC wrote:



Wren,
I ment to type in pro-life but I guess it turned out I didn't. It would be devastating to make abortion illegal. Women should have a choice it is their body. It was ****ed up when it was illegal and we should never go back there.

Abortion is a gray area with me. I can't say yes or no. I can't say what I would do in another woman's shoes.






 OK just a little misunderstanding, no worries. biggrin



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xiaokang wrote:

... We can never judge who's right and who's wrong.


 That is so true and if people would accept that I believe we could all be happier.



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The way I see it IS; For every unwanted child, there is a wanting family, and for every wanting family there is an unwanted child.

Adoption is a great gift too, as it gives people hope, a new chance! :D

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Annie wrote:

The way I see it IS; For every unwanted child, there is a wanting family, and for every wanting family there is an unwanted child.

Adoption is a great gift too, as it gives people hope, a new chance! :D


 Yes, I do think adoption will be a great choice, a great gift for both the baby and the people who adopt the baby!



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Evolving wrote:

In a perfect world, women would be taught to be responsible about their sexuality. They would have loving, responsible parents and role models and a society that teaches responsible behavior about sexuality and honoring one's body.  Sadly, kids are molested, parents are drug addicts and alcoholics, media presents sex as casual, and our educational system and religious institutions cannot come to agreement about what is responsible sexual behavior.  So unplanned pregnancies happen.  Aborting an embryo is sad, but bringing an unwanted baby into the world is worse in my humble opinion.


 oh, well said!



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Oolong wrote:

 I think it's unforgivable.


 nothing is unforgivable but many people have had their lives ruined by thinking so. 



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I am in a really gray area with the idea of abortion.
One reason is because I was born very premature, and it is a miracle I survived [I had a really low % of survival].
My eyes were not opened either - like a newborn kitten or puppy.
After my major surgery, my mother said a tear rolled down my cheek. I couldn't cry out because I was hooked to a ventilator.
And some think that just because a baby is not expressing pain that they cannot feel it.
One thing I will say is don't get an abortion just for the sake of having an abortion. It's not a form of birth control.
I mean in an event like a rape, it would be very difficult to have and raise that child.
I think adoption is a great idea. Because there are so many people who cannot have their own kids, but then again, there are so many kids that want to have a family.


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I think what it really boils down to though, is the individual's choice.

I was watching an english hospital drama the other day, set in the 50s? (possibly). The point was at the time it was set, abortion wasn't legal (without parental consent - plus was HELLA expensive). This young girl, was made to have an illegal abortion by her boyfriend, and nearly died as a result. In fact dodgey abortions go WAAAAAAAY back, to olden times when women used to ingest dangerous herbs and plants to make themselves so ill they lost the baby.

Luckily we ARE now in a society where children out of wedlock aren't such a problem, so there should be little or no need for the actual abortions.

Although there is a safe option of doing so - although perhaps this is a bad thing, as some women use it as a contraceptive.

@Thorn - That is REALLY insightful. I know that that will always stay with me!

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I think it's up to the person in question, and the specific circumstances. I wouldn't do it if it was me, and not just because I'm vegan, it's for other reasons. I'm generally against abortion, but as I said, it does depend on the circumstances.

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B _ Angelika wrote:

I think it's up to the person in question, and the specific circumstances. I wouldn't do it if it was me, and not just because I'm vegan, it's for other reasons. I'm generally against abortion, but as I said, it does depend on the circumstances.


 A lot of things are circumstantial with touchy areas like this.

I mean, how can someone be REALLY against abortion, but eat meat?

Or how can someone be STRICTLY veg*an, but condone abortion?

It's a difficult one! 



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Your average musical theatre geek, fantasy book/film nerd, lover of all animals and a vegan. Oh, and  a moderator on New to Veganism and Vegan Discussions.

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Wren wrote:

That is really an interesting question. As of this minute I believe in a womens right to choose what she does or doesn't allow to grow in her body. I would agree that abortion is sad but I also think it's sometimes necessary. And I don't think I have the right to say when it is or isn't necessary for someone else.


 

That is how I feel on the subject too Wren.



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Annie wrote:



Or how can someone be STRICTLY veg*an, but condone abortion?


 

 

In some circumstances a women is told she has to have a termination for health reasons.

So of course it is possible to be a practicing ethical vegan and have one, you are not causing suffering to a conscious being with a developed nervous system (except arguably yourself, it must be a traumatic experience for anyone, whatever the reason)

At around 8 -10 weeks the embryo becomes a foetus. At around 26 weeks the nervous system develops enough to control some body functions. It can feel pain at around 26 weeks (this is well after the legal limit for termination in USA, UK & Europe) but there is no 'thinking', hence the reason none of us remember being in the womb presumably.



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 "A man can live and be healthy without killing animals for food; therefore, if he eats meat, he participates in taking animal life merely for the sake of his appetite. And to act so is immoral." Leo Tolstoy

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What about chic eggs? What is the difference between the two? How does a vegan make an exception?



-- Edited by SummerC on Sunday 7th of August 2011 06:01:19 AM

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There's a world of difference with farmed eggs. Most of the male chickens that hatch when eggs are fertilised to 'make' new laying hens are crushed to death whilst still alive as they're not wanted - so there is unnecessary killing and suffering associated with eating eggs.


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There's a video of what goes on behind the scenes of the egg industry, I'm trying to find it....I really should just bookmark these nasty things. But Jayx is right, they toss the males chicks down a shoot as they separate males from females....the males are literally ground up ALIVE into "meat" while the females are "processed" to be used as egg-layers. (Beaks are burned off so they can't peck each other in their close quarters...)

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Ok I found it....this is why eating eggs is contradictory to a vegetarians ethics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ--faib7to&feature=player_embedded#at=34

I don't know how to make the link active with my tablet, so you have to copy and paste....sorry :(



-- Edited by Spaz on Sunday 7th of August 2011 09:17:50 AM

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